Report by Head of Legal and Regulatory Support
Minutes:
The
Chair welcomed everyone to the meeting and introductions were made. He then outlined the procedure that would be
followed.
The
Chair advised of a preliminary matter which would require to be dealt with before
the Committee considered the application and invited Mr McMillan to advise.
Mr
McMillan advised of a late objection from Mr Franks and advised that the
Committee would need to consider whether or not to receive the objection.
Mr
Franks was invited to advise the Committee of the reason why his objection was
late. Mr Franks advised that there had
been a discrepancy on the online register of applications where there had been
a gap of five weeks between the register being updated. He advised that Mr Berry’s application did
not show on the register until the closing date for objections had passed.
Mr
Berry said that he didn’t think that the objection should be received and asked
for evidence to back up Mr Franks reason for his late objection.
The
Chair asked Mr Franks how late his objection was to which he replied that it
was one day late.
Mr
McMillan clarified that the online register was maintained by the Council, that
the normal process was that it would be updated every Tuesday, but due to staff
absence this had not been done. He
advised that under Schedule 1 of the Act the Council are required to update the
online register as soon as is reasonably practicable
and advised that Notices had been displayed within
the Area Offices within the required timescales and had been made available for
28 days.
The
Chair confirmed with Mr McMillan that objections were due on 26 November 2019
and Mr Franks objection had been received on 27 November 2019.
The
Committee agreed to accept the late objection.
The
Chair invited the Applicant to speak in support of his application.
APPLICANT
Mr
Berry told the Committee that he was applying for a wheelchair accessible taxi
licence and that the recent report had recommended the need for more wheelchair
accessible taxis in the area. He advised
that he would be the only operator to do both normal and wheelchair accessible
taxis and had converted his car to accommodate a wheelchair. He advised that he would be happy for the
Committee to attach conditions to his licence so that his vehicle could be a
wheelchair only vehicle.
QUESTIONS FROM OBJECTORS
Mr
Franks advised that he had no questions for the applicant.
OBJECTORS
Mr
Franks advised that he was objecting because Mr Berry was operating contrary to
his private hire operators licence as he was using a wired taxi meter in his
vehicles and had been cross border hiring in Dumbarton.
QUESTIONS FROM APPLICANT
Mr
Berry asked for evidence of this.
Mr
Franks referred Members to the pictures he had submitted as part of his late
objection and pointed out that you could see a meter on the vehicle and that he
was not the first in the area to be on the TOA system. He also referred to the picture of the
private hire vehicle sitting on the taxi rank.
MEMBERS’ QUESTIONS
The
Chair asked Mr Franks if the meter he referred to was the orange light that
appeared on the photograph. Mr Franks
advised the red lights were where the meter was and this was not the only
vehicle in the area that had a wired taxi meter in a private hire vehicle. The Chair asked Mr Franks to confirm the
number plate of the vehicle in the picture and referred to the picture of the
vehicle on the taxi rank asking him to confirm that this was correct. He advised that the vehicle sitting on the rank
was the only one of its kind in the area and that the Committee would need to
take his word for it.
Councillor
Trail asked Mr Berry to confirm if wheelchair accessible vehicles were normally
called by telephone. Mr Berry advised
yes but some did come off buses and trains looking for a taxi on the rank. Councillor Trail pointed out that they could
call from a mobile phone.
Councillor
Douglas sought clarification on whether a private hire vehicle could use a
meter. Mr McMillan confirmed that as
long as there was an agreement with the customer at the start of the journey
that the meter would be governing the fayre then there was nothing to prohibit
the use of a meter.
The
Chair asked if there was anything that specified the tariff and if a private
hire car could run at a different tariff.
Mr Berry advised that it was the same tariff and that he was required to
show a certificate during the taxi test to show what the tariff was.
The
Chair sought clarification from Mr Berry on whether he would be using the
vehicle solely as a wheelchair accessible vehicle. Mr Berry replied that he would be using the
vehicle as both a normal taxi and a wheelchair accessible vehicle. Mr Berry added that he would be happy for the
vehicle under the licence to remain a wheelchair accessible vehicle even if he
changed vehicle.
The
Chair asked if this meant that any further cars under this licence would be for
a wheelchair accessible vehicle. Mr
Berry replied yes.
Councillor
Trail asked if this meant that the car could be used as a normal taxi but if he
changed the vehicle that it would need to be a wheelchair accessible
vehicle. He was told yes.
Councillor
Taylor asked when Mr Berry referred to having a taxi licence and private hire
licence if that meant he would have two vehicles on the road. Mr Berry confirmed that he would have 3 cars
on the road if his application was approved.
The
Chair asked Mr Berry how many cars he had on the road at the moment to which he
replied 3. Mr McMillan confirmed to the
Committee the licences that were currently held by Mr Berry.
The
Chair asked Mr Berry why he wished to transfer his private hire licence to a
taxi licence and what his main reason was for changing. Mr Berry replied that it was to put a wheelchair
accessible vehicle on the road and that the vehicle had already been
converted. The Chair asked Mr Berry why
he required to change from a private hire licence to a taxi licence. Mr Berry replied that he would rather he was
able to pick up passengers on the street and that there was a need for this as
currently cars travelled from Alexandria which put an additional £20 charge
onto customers.
The
Chair advised he was of the mind that the Committee should not be approving the
application as the report had advised there was no unmet demand, he referred to
the point made by Councillor Trail that most hires were over the phone or
through the app and asked Mr Berry why he should not take account of the
report. He asked Mr Berry if the
conversion had taken place already to which Mr Berry replied yes.
The
Chair again asked Mr Berry why he should not take account of the report and
grant him a taxi licence. Mr Berry
advised that it was more difficult to get a driver for a private hire car. The Chair asked Mr Berry about the percentage
of business that came through via calls and the app. Mr Berry advised that there were about 2000
jobs per week off the system and half of that from the rank which was shared
between 25 cars. Mr Berry added that if
a taxi licence was granted it would mean there would be a wheelchair accessible
vehicle on the road 24/7.
SUMMING UP
OBJECTORS
Mr
Franks commented that he found it hard to believe that Mr Berry could not find
a driver for a private hire vehicle.
APPLICANT
Mr
Berry said that it would be a benefit to Helensburgh to have more wheelchair
accessible vehicles as stated in the report.
Both
Mr Berry and Mr Franks confirmed they had received a fair hearing.
DEBATE
Councillor
Redman advised that he felt that more wheelchair accessible vehicles was a good
thing and that more choice was essential for consumers. He referred to the fact that most objections
were from other operators and advised that competition was a good thing. He advised he was minded to approve the
application.
Councillor
Taylor said that he had campaigned for improved wheelchair access for a number
of years and had wanted to see more people bringing forward wheelchair
accessible vehicles. He said that
provided the Committee attach the conditions mentioned by the applicant and
given there was no net gain of vehicles in the area he was prepared to accept
the application.
Councillor
Trail advised that given that there was no increase in taxi numbers he was
happy for the change to a taxi licence if the private hire licence was given
up.
Councillor
Douglas agreed.
The
Chair advised that he was not totally convinced that it was the right decision
to grant the licence but was happy to put on a condition that it continued to be
a wheelchair accessible vehicle and this was the only reason he was happy to
grant the licence. He said that it was
also due to the fact that there would not be an additional vehicle on the road. He advised that since Councillor Taylor had
campaigned for so long to see more wheelchair accessible vehicles on the road
he would like to grant the application.
DECISION
The
Committee agreed to grant Mr Berry with a taxi operator licence subject to
1.
the condition that the vehicle
attached to the licence be a wheelchair accessible vehicle for the length of time
the licence was in existence; and
2.
Mr Berry surrendering Private
Hire Vehicle Licence No 6340.
(Reference:
Report by Head of Legal and Regulatory Support, submitted)