Report by Head of Legal and Regulatory Support
Minutes:
The
Chair welcomed everyone to the meeting and introductions were made. He then outlined the procedure that would be
followed and invited the applicant to speak in support of his application.
APPLICANT
Mr
McNeill spoke to the terms of his application on behalf of Glasgow Coach
Drivers and advised that in his experience a number of people request an 8
seater vehicle when making taxi bookings and that he had noted a distinct lack
of vehicles of this size available for hire within the area, hence his application.
QUESTIONS FROM OBJECTORS
Mr
Finlay asked Mr McNeill to explain why he currently uses a 5 seater Skoda
Estate car, when he claims the demand is for an 8 seater. Mr McNeill confirmed that he is collecting
private hire fares using the Skoda Estate car, and that his other 8 seater
vehicle is currently off the road.
Mr
Finlay enquired as to the status of his other vehicles given that he has more
than one licensed vehicle. Mr McNeill
confirmed that he has a Skoda Estate and a Ford 8 seater. He confirmed that the Ford 8 seater was in
the garage and had been for a prolonged period, due to issues, which were being
addressed under the manufacturer’s warranty.
Mrs
McCandlish enquired as to who was driving the Skoda
Estate car when it is on hire. Mr
McNeill advised that it was either Mark Franks or Steven Muir, depending on who
is available.
OBJECTORS
Mr
Finlay spoke to the terms of his objection and advised that he was also aware
that Mr McNeill had been disqualified from driving on his bus licence for a
period of 25 years by the Traffic Commission and he believed that he had been
illegally operating as a Private Hire operator prior to obtaining his
licences. He also spoke of legal issues
Mr McNeill had encountered due to failing to change his home address and how
the use of a booking system had diverted potential customers to his own
businesses, under a variety of names, including Trident Taxis, which was
similar to another well-established business within the area, to the detriment
of individual operators within the Helensburgh and
Lomond area.
Mrs
McCandlish advised that she believed Mr McNeill had
lied to the Committee at a previous meeting, by advising that he had been
granted 2 licences in 2018, one being from Argyll and Bute Council, however
this was not the case as the one from Argyll and Bute Council had not been
granted until March 2019.
QUESTIONS FROM APPLICANT
Mr
McNeill confirmed he had no questions.
MEMBERS’ QUESTIONS
Councillor
Colville enquired as to whether there were any police objections to the
application. The Council’s Solicitor, Mr
MacMillan advised that there had been no police objections.
Councillor
Colville asked Mr McNeill to advise whether he had had an opportunity to read
the results of the recent LSVA survey and how he felt they impacted on his
application. Mr McNeill confirmed that
his view was the same as the conclusion of the survey in that there was no
overprovision for Private Hire licences.
The
Council’s Solicitor, Mr MacMillan confirmed the outcome of the survey in the Helensburgh and Lomond area in relation to the assessment
of taxi numbers. He advised that it had
shown that there was no unmet demand. He
also confirmed that the survey found that there was no overprovision of private
hire licences over Argyll and Bute as a whole.
Councillor
Trail enquired as to the 8 seater vehicle that currently has a licence. Mr McNeill confirmed that the vehicle had
been off the road for over 4 months. He
advised that he had had the problem sorted and had it back for a fortnight,
only for it to break down again due to an issue with the adblue
system and it was currently back with Ford to be repaired under warranty.
Councillor
Moffat enquired as to whether there had been any report done, specifically in
relation to the provision of vehicles of a certain size. Mr MacMillan confirmed that there is no
policy within Argyll and Bute Council that relates to the size of the vehicle,
but that there was one in relation to wheelchair adaptability.
Councillor
Douglas asked Mr McNeill whether the application was simply to cover for other
vehicle breakdowns. Mr McNeill confirmed
that he had three vehicles and he wished to operate three vehicles.
Councillor
Douglas sought clarity from the Council’s Solicitor in relation to the
complaints raised by the objectors as she felt that some were out of the remit
of the committee. Mr MacMillan confirmed
that it was open to the objectors to raise concerns that could ultimately prove
that the applicant is not a fit and proper person to be the holder of a
licence.
Councillor
Douglas then asked the objectors to clarify the reason for raising a complaint
on the operation of a business. Mr
Finlay explained that if a person uses another business name, such as Trident
Taxis on a website, then if a potential
customer selects this on the belief that
a Trident Taxi will turn up, however this would
be diverted to one of Mr McNeill’s other businesses, away from
individual operators and this pretence would
suggest that he is not a fit and proper person. He also suggested that the 25 year
disqualification from the Traffic Commission further proved that he is not a
fit and proper person. He highlighted that
the exact reason for the disqualification was unknown.
Councillor
Douglas sought clarification on the disqualification from the Council’s
Solicitor. Mr MacMillan advised that
having consulted Police Scotland in relation to the application, there were no
concerns raised with Mr McNeill’s licence.
Councillor
Trail expressed concern that Mr McNeill was deliberately subverting the
business of both Trident Taxis and Neptune Cars. Mr McNeill advised that the phone number of
Trident Taxis is registered and operated by a booking system. He advised that depending on how a taxi is
booked, the driver will get the notification on his phone, if they are unable
to supply a taxi at that time, the booking will be diverted onto another
company or driver and depending on the destination of the passenger, this could
be a Private Hire company or driver from another area.
Councillor
Currie reminded the Committee that the application is for a Private Hire
Operators Licence, and any driving history is irrelevant at this point as the
vehicle could be operated by any other licensed driver. Councillor Currie asked whether there was a
gap in the market for an 8 seater vehicle, and Mr McNeill advised that he
believed that there was.
Councillor
Moffat asked Mr McNeill if he could elaborate on the reasons that the bus
licence had been suspended. Mr McNeill
advised that his licence had been suspended as he had failed to provide
information in relation to a speeding offence back in 2012. He advised that he did not realise that the
licence had been suspended until he tried to apply for the renewal of his
licence at his fiftieth birthday in 2017.
The
Chair, Councillor Kinniburgh enquired as to the position with regards to his
European Community Driving Licence. Mr
McNeill advised that he had received a letter from the Traffic Commissioner and
that he had never had this licence in his hand.
Councillor
Kinniburgh asked Mrs McCandlish how she came about
the licence. Mrs McCandlish
advised that it appears on a number of webpages that Mr McNeill owns. She advised that she had emailed the Traffic
Commissioners office, who confirmed that it was illegal and was being looked
into.
Mr
MacMillan reminded the Committee that they were here to consider an application
for Private Hire Operator’s Licence. He
advised that it was right for the objectors to make their objections, and while
it is open for Members to ask questions, he suggested that they shouldn’t let
it detract from the application in front of them.
Councillor
Kinniburgh enquired as to the use of the booking system. Mr McNeill outlined the way in which calls
are handled when they come in and how bookings are distributed out to drivers
who have registered with the booking system.
Councillor
Kinniburgh asked about cost for registering to use the booking system and also
the number of drivers using the system at present. Mr McNeill confirmed that there was no charge
to register with the booking system and that there were thousands of drivers
across the UK registered to it. He
further explained that you would only get a job if it related to the area you
are licensed to drive in, and confirmed that relevant checks are made prior to
a person’s details being added to the system.
Councillor
Colville referred to the newly added subsections of Section 10 of the Civic
Government (Scotland) Act 1982 and asked whether this was the new Scottish
Government guidance. Mr MacMillan confirmed that the new guidance
was not yet available and advised that the new subsections permitted the
refusal of an application on the grounds of overprovision. He further advised that the normal grounds
for refusal still apply, and can be found in paragraph 5 of schedule 1 of the
Act. He explained that if none of the
grounds exist then it would be the duty of the Committee to grant the
application.
SUMMING UP
Objectors
Mr
Finlay asked the Committee to take into consideration that Mr McNeill had been
disqualified from driving on his bus licence for a period of 25 years by the
Traffic Commission; that he had been illegally operating as a Private Hire
operator prior to obtaining his licences for a period of 3 years and the legal
issues Mr McNeill had had due to a change of address. Mr Finlay spoke of how the use of a booking
system had diverted potential customers to one of Mr McNeill’s own businesses
to the detriment of individual operators within the Helensburgh
and Lomond area.
Mrs
McCandlish asked the Committee to take into account
that the LVSA Survey had been carried out on a busy weekend in May. She advised that only 9 taxi drivers took
part in the survey and she did not feel that they represented the taxi
community as a whole.
Applicant
Mr
McNeill advised that he felt that there were not enough Private Hire operators
to cover the whole Argyll and Bute area.
He advised that he’d be happy to help other operators who did not have
an 8 seater vehicle.
When
asked, both parties confirmed that they had received a fair hearing.
DEBATE
Councillor Currie advised that he
felt the Committee had gone down some unnecessary roads on this journey and
that this case was pretty straightforward.
He referred to paragraph 2.5 of the report by the Head of Legal and
Regulatory Support which stated that under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act
1982 a private hire car licence could only be refused if there was over
provision. He pointed out that the
recent survey carried out said there was no over provision so on that basis he
was minded to grant this licence.
Councillor Redman advised that he
was minded to agree with what Councillor Currie had said. He said that they only people saying there
was over provision were those who would be affected by competition. He referred to free markets and the recent
survey report and advised that there was no point in issuing reports if the
findings were not acknowledged. He
advised that it was his belief that there was no over provision. He said that competition was a good thing and
that he was minded to approve the application.
Councillor Trail advised that he
took a slightly different view. He said that he did not think Mr McNeill had
shown any regard to the existing Trident business. He referred to Mr McNeill setting up business
in the same name and registering the name under him and advised that he thought
this was a blatant attempt to affect the other business. He advised that he
did not think Mr McNeill was a fit and proper person to run a private hire
business in Helensburgh.
Councillor Currie
advised that from reading the report the only reason the Committee could refuse
was on the basis of over provision and he sought clarity on this. Mr McMillan advised that over provision was
an additional ground of refusal in addition to the others under the Act which
included whether or not a person was a fit and proper person to be the holder
of the licence; whether or not the activity to which the licence relates would
be managed or carried on for the benefit of a person other than the licence
holder who would be refused the grant or renewal of the licence; and whether or
not the carrying on of the activity to which the licence relates would cause
undue public nuisance or a threat to public order or public safety. Mr McMillan confirmed that the over provision
aspect was why applications for private hire operator licences would now come
to Committee whether or not there was an objection to the application.
Councillor Douglas
advised that she had taken on board what other Members had said about over
provision. She advised that she thought
it was what had come out at the hearing today that mattered. She said that as a Member of this Committee
she had a duty of care and that she was of a similar mind to Councillor Trail.
Councillor Colville
advised that he shared the same concerns as Councillor Trail but felt he was
restricted by the Act. He said that it
was quite obvious to him that taxis in the Helensburgh
area were acting as private hires. In
terms of the Act he said that he did not think it would be correct unless
someone was to convince him otherwise to refuse this application.
Councillor Kinniburgh
said that he found this a difficult case.
He acknowledged everything that had been said and advised that he was
leaning towards the thoughts of Councillor Trail. He advised that by the same token he felt
constrained by the Act. He advised that
he would leave it to the other Members to move a Motion.
Motion
To agree to grant a
Private Hire Car Operator Licence to the Applicant.
Moved by Councillor
Alastair Redman, seconded by Councillor Jean Moffat.
Amendment
To agree to refuse
the application for grant of a Private Hire Car Operator Licence on the grounds
that the Applicant was not a fit and proper person to be the holder of this
licence.
Moved by Councillor
Richard Trail, seconded by Councillor Lorna Douglas.
The Motion was
carried by 5 votes to 3 and the Committee resolved accordingly.
DECISION
The Committee agreed to grant a
Private Hire Car Operator Licence to Mr Colin McNeill.
(Reference:
Report by Head of Regulatory and Support, submitted)