Agenda and minutes

Argyll and Bute Community Planning Partnership - Management Committee - Wednesday, 29 September 2021 10:00 am, NEW

Venue: via MS TEAMS

No. Item


Welcome and Apologies (Chair)


Pippa welcomed everyone to the meeting and advised that she was chairing as Joe had sent his apologies. Other apologies were noted.



Approval of last minutes and review of actions (Rona Gold) pdf icon PDF 544 KB

Additional documents:


The last minutes were accepted. Rona noted that the majority of actions from the last meeting are complete and the outstanding actions were updated as follows:


-       Partners to forward ideas or good practice of how they are engaging with youth / how to include youth voices in our work - Rona has only received a couple of responses and encouraged all partners to forward examples of the good, proactive work that is going on as young people are an important voice in Community Planning. Once the Community Planning Officer vacancy is filled we will look at how to best refresh engagement with young people. Pippa encouraged partners to continue to look to include youth voices in their work.

-       Work Building Back Better recovery plans into ACPG plans - not due till December.

-       Digital Short life working group - not due till December.

-       Western Isles adaptation plans - Stan advised that these plans are still in draft and not available at present.

-       Climate Change Working Group to feedback to Police on climate events - advice on this has gone out to all contacts on the fortnightly Community Development and CPP bulletins.

ACTION - Stan to ensure any events that the Climate Change Working Group are aware of are sent to the Police.

-       Education Summit event advice to Robin - action noted as complete.


Robin asked if there was any further information that can be provided to officers on the Climate Event planned in Helensburgh on 11 November. 

ACTION - When event information is available, Robin is to be provided with an update and information sent out in CPP Bulletin.


Fergus advised that there was an allocation of £3000 towards a small COP26 event in Hermitage Park to enable us to introduce new, and augment existing, elements of our activity plan working in partnership with groups before, during and after COP26. The date of this is to be confirmed and the details and proposed activities will added to our CPP Climate Change webpages which are full of information about what partners and communities are doing on climate change.

ACTION - Hermitage Park event information to be added to CPP Climate Change webpages.


Anthony asked if it was still possible to send information for inclusion in the Gaelic newsletter. Rona advised all partners that this newsletter is published regularly and any items for inclusion can be passed to Cristie Moore, Gaelic Development Officer at


Matters Arising from Area Community Planning Groups (Shona Barton) pdf icon PDF 467 KB


Shona provided a report with updates from the last ACPG meetings, noting there had been good attendance in all 4 areas. Change to office bearers were advised:

-       Helensburgh and Lomond - Laura Cameron has stepped down as Chair and the appointment of a new Chair has been carried forward to the November meeting. Thanks were given to Albert for covering the Chair at the last meeting.

-       Mid Argyll Kintyre and the Isles - Ian Brodie was appointed for a further tenure as Chair and Rachel Whyte resigned as Vice Chair. The appointment of a new Vice Chair has been carried forward to the November meeting.

-       Oban Lorn and the Isles - Rachel Lawler has stepped down as Vice Chair and the appointment of a new Vice Chair has been carried forward to the November meeting.

Shona advised that all areas had appointed representatives to sit on the Climate Change group (except for Oban, Lorn and the Isles which will address this at the November meeting). 


Chairs and Vice Chairs meetings have started in advance of each round of meetings to agree a standardised agenda and discussion points. At the last meeting the importance of partners’ attendance at ACPGs was highlighted, and it would be appreciated if partner organisations can send representatives to attend future ACPGs.


Pippa gave thanks to the office bearers that are stepping down and gave congratulations to Ian on his new tenure. Pippa also praised the good work of the Governance team to enable participation and new ideas at ACPGs.



Cross Cutting Themes


Climate Change (Stan Phillips) pdf icon PDF 150 KB


Stan provided an update on the work of the Climate Change working group (CCWG) with a short presentation. This highlighted the community projects that are currently ongoing across the area, adding that all partners will also have in place, and will be working on, their own decarbonisations plans. The last CCWG brainstormed excellent ideas of what more can be done, but it is felt that cherry picking projects without that sitting in a strategy or framework was not the most effective course of action. The CCWG propose to develop an overarching strategy (like is in place in other council areas) that will focus on mitigation, adaptation and awareness and welcome thoughts from the CPP MC on how best to move that forward.


Pippa thanked Stan for his update which highlighted the scale of challenge.

Morag asked how this work sits alongside the work being done by the Argyll and Bute Renewable Alliance. Stan said that renewables are just one part of a multistring approach to this work and that an audit is needed to understand what is already going on and how it all meshes together. This will allow the group to identify new areas of work that need to be focused on.


Alison supported the need to complete this audit, added that Public Health have an interest in climate change and are keen to work with the group moving forward. She also advised of work currently underway regarding waste in medicine that can be fed into the group.  Stan welcomed Alison’s future involvement on the CCWG. Takki also agreed it would be helpful to see what going on across the area and asked if the audit could review other plans that are out there that represent issues around upfront cost? Stan advised that has not been looked at yet, however, and costs associated to get a strategy and adaptation plan up and running is an investment for the future, and nothing compared to cost of adaptation to climate changes i.e. protecting our coastal areas from storms and sea level rises.  

Theresa agreed with need for an audit and action plan as we all know where need to get to, but need a route map on how to get there and understand where the gaps are and what we can do about them. Organisations like HiE and Scottish Enterprise are engaging with business on this already and asked how that will that fit in with the CCWG plan? Stan agreed that all strands will need to be threaded in to the final strategy. Anthony also thought it would be good for partners to share their own plans to see what the total activity looks like. Theresa added a link to Scottish Enterprise’s Net Zero Framework for Action for information.


Robin said that Argyll and Bute Council want to be the first council to reach carbon zero, but we also need to look at other issues associated with climate change. He gave the examples of the high number of wind farms in Kintyre, yet this is an area with one of the highest areas in the country for full poverty, and also the huge increase in energy costs to homes when converting from solid fuel to air source heat systems. Stan agreed this was an issue and suggested this would for the renewable energy group to address, adding that development companies need to step up to this too.


It was agreed that a Climate Audit and Strategy should be progressed via extended partner participation in a focussed CCWG meeting. Pippa asked all partners to identify an appropriate lead to represent them at that meeting (and any other interested parties). The group should identify a best way forward and route map with plans for comprehensive engement with communities in the future (will need to consider a comprehensive engagement next year as part of the ABOIP review and that can be combined that with engagement on climate change). Pippa also noted that Climate Change impact would be added to council reports. Progress on this by the CCWG is to be reviewed at the December CPP MC. Albert advised that the SFRS have a national and local environmental officer that can sit on the CCWG, this was welcomed by Stan. Pippa also suggested a representative from Transport Scotland would be a key partner to include. Anyone interested in joining the CCWG can contact Stan on

ACTION - Stan to identify gaps of organisations not represented at the CCWG and seek partner attendance on the expanded subgroup to prepare a report for review at December meeting.

ACTION - CPP team to work with Stan to get best representative group around table on the CCWG.



Child Poverty (Rona Gold)


Rona provided highlights from the latest Child Poverty Planning group meeting noting that training on UNCR Convention on the Rights of the Child and child poverty for the Third Sector has completed and options are now being considered to widen this for others including the creation of a module within the Councils online training programme. The recruitment of the Project Assistant (Young Carer/Child Poverty) has completed with the successful candidate due to start 20 November 2021. The Summer of Play programme was successfully delivered mainly by Council Education Services and Live Argyll and learning from this is being evaluated to inform future programmes. Positive engagement is continuing with the Community Food Forum, who met last week. The AyeWrite campaign is active (part of the End Child Food Poverty campaign) and calls for people to write to their MPs to ask them to pledge support to end child poverty. #Write Now. The Challenge Poverty Week takes place 4 to 10 October 2021. The group noted that there is little data available to measure the different areas of poverty and they agreed it is helpful to commence with a request to organisations to state poverty driver/areas involved in tackling poverty. 

The group are also updating a Child Poverty webpage and this will allow comments and interaction on the site that can be reviewed by the group.



Financial Inclusion (Fergus Walker) pdf icon PDF 371 KB


Rona presented paper by Fergus Walker, for noting by partners, which provided an update on grant application numbers and the funds provided to date.



Community Wealth Building (Fergus Murray)


Fergus advised Community Wealth Building is an integral in what we deliver, and in the rural growth deal moving forward, at it is a requirement of both governments to be inclusive. The recruitment has completed for a new Program Officer who will be undertaking training with the Scottish Government on how our coming projects will contribute to Community Wealth Building and the WB and outputs of that. There have also been discussions with the TSI and HiE on how to build Community Wealth Building in Argyll and Bute and mapping what we do well and where gaps are. Decision making around focusing on filling gaps or pursuing what we do well will be completed later on. Takki added that they are looking at completing a desk top exercise to identify gaps and synergies, with some activity that can be expanded or amplified that currently fulfil the aims of Community Wealth Building.


The social enterprise network decided to organise a conference for the sector on 8 November. There is a large synergy with social enterprise and Community Wealth Building, with lots of opportunities but we need to identify best use of resources to flesh that out. Morag noted that there are elements on the approach to Community Wealth Building that Argyll and Bute do very well especially around community ownership, where we are an exemplar, and in some respects we are ahead of the game on aspects of this agenda.


Pippa noted it is a sensible process to use our resources to best potential.



Digital (Rona Gold)


Rona encouraged all partners to visit the Connecting Scotland website as this provides a comprehensive explanation of what Connecting Scotland is. The project is led by the Scottish Government and aims to get digitally excluded households online by the end of 2021. The deadline for applications to obtain a device is 5pm on Friday 12th November (details are in the website link). Connecting Scotland provides a comprehensive approach to tackle digital inclusion and there is work ongoing to bring the work together of the digital infrastructure group and the CLD partnership group to better support Digital Inclusion. Pippa added that this is a key issue that the partners need to address.

ACTION - All partners are encouraged to make organisations that they work with aware of the Connecting Scotland project. 



Building Back Better (Communities) (Rona Gold)


Rona advised that the Building Back Better (Communities) group was started to review feedback that was received from communities at the height of the pandemic and deliver an action plan. The next meeting (1 October) will look at the Public Health Annual Report for Argyll and Bute. A Building Back Better (Communities) post has been created and will be in place for 18 months to re-engage with community groups on the issues they face now and to support the group to address those issues. Recruitment for this will begin shortly.



Outcome 6


Update on Public Safety Projects and Community Safety Partnership (Laura Evans) pdf icon PDF 225 KB


Laura submitted a report to the committee which highlighted the work of the Community Safety Partnership, the strategy and delivery plan for this was signed off by the CPP MC at the March meeting. The Community Safety Partnership was started to deliver on Outcome 6 and has created an innovate approach to provide support to victims of domestic abuse which is being delivered by Medics Against Violence - a connection has been identified between animal abuse and victim abuse, so links have been made with vets in Bute and Cowal and they are looking to garner interest in other vets across the area. Child sexual exploitation and abuse features highly on the safety agenda and an event to provide tips and wider awareness on how to keep children safe online, without restricting access, was hosted by the TSI with attendance from 20 representatives of community groups. Next steps will look at further sessions for parents to give them tools to keep children safe online. Partners are encouraged to circulate the information on this widely, when it becomes available. Laura also advised partners of the CEOP (Child Exploitation and Online Protection) ‘button’ that can be put on partner websites. This button can be used to report inappropriate content and goes to a national command centre. Partners can contact Laura on for more information.


Friendship benches have been installed to support the work of the suicide prevention group.


Fraud continues to increase across the area and affects everyone without discrimination. There were 55 recorded crimes of fraud in Argyll and Bute this year (up from 35 last year). Fraud is not a faceless crime, people are affected by this type of crime by both financial loss and a negative effect on wellbeing. The funding from the CPP has purchased 150 call blocking devices, and since April, 66 have been installed for vulnerable residents. These devices block nuisance calls and provide reports to the Police. It is estimated that the cost benefit to residents of these devices is in the region of £900,000 (preventing financial loss, on costs for support from police and health services). Referrals to install a call blocker do not need to come through Social Services and partners can contact Laura to advise of any vulnerable people that would benefit from the installation of a call blocker. 


Pippa thanked Laura for her update on this valuable work. Of note, the upcoming Pippa’s Podcast will be a talk with Laura and Trading Standards about the call blocking devices.


Action: Partners can contact Laura on for more information on the CEOP (Child Exploitation and Online Protection) ‘button’ that can be put on partner websites.



Water Safety Awareness (Albert Bruce)


Over the last 5 years there have been over 90 water related deaths in Scotland (compared to 160 on the roads) which highlights the scale of the issue. Alberts paper discussed water safety in Argyll and Bute and the challenges due to the vast coastline we have and advised that the Scotland Drowning Strategy looks to reduce water deaths by 50%. Albert emphasised that Water Safety needs a partnership approach across all areas, and is keen that this be identified as year round matter, and not just in the key summer period. A review of all water accidents will take place to identify local and national actions that are needed and encouraged all partners to support the delivery of those actions so that preventative measures and a co-ordinated approach can be in place for next year.


Alison noted that with access to things like paddleboard being so accessible there are definitely increased numbers on the water (not all with appropriate buoyancy aids) and it is important to spread information on how to enjoy the water as safely as possible. Albert added there needs to be a long term educational approach to water safety in schools and there is lots of work going on in the background with ministerial interest. This matter cannot be allowed to go away and must be addressed.


Pippa thanked Albert for his update and agreed this is a growing issue and partners need to sustain year round involvement in the group on this issue.


Outcome 5


Public Health Annual Report for Argyll and Bute (Public Health Team) pdf icon PDF 310 KB

Additional documents:


Alison advised that there is no active Outcome 5 leadership group and she was impressed to hear of co-ordinated group work for Outcome 6. The gap in Outcome 5 exists due to Public Health being unable to lead this issue over the pandemic response in the last 18 months.  Public Health have historically led this Outcome, but noted that any agency could lead on this, with Public health as key partners.


Alison noted that the bulk of work in the last year was around COVID, which included partnership with the NHS and Argyll and Bute Council on Caring for People, and with the Fire Service to provide PCR testing facilities in stations across much of the area. Asymptomatic testing has also been a feature of campaigns in partnership with LiveArgyll providing a static testing sire at Victoria Halls, Helensburgh, in addition to roving test sites to ensure maximum uptake of testing. This has been successful and a weekly steering group continues on this. Non covid work includes the Building Back Better response from NHS highland which is called “social mitigation”. In April 2021 they adopted the social mitigation strategy to identify what the NHS need to do to address, for example, the increasing mental health needs of population, equalities, violence against women etc. A November workshop will be held around how to incorporate this in to service plans, followed by engagement. The Living Well in Argyll and Bute strategy launched in 2019 and important work coming out of this steering group includes addressing fragility and physical activity, signposting to mental health support, engagement with key partners (ACUMEN, focus groups, interviews and surveys to tease out key themes on mental health distress). The Suicide prevention steering group, which was remobilised in June 2020 and continues under the leadership of Fiona Davies, is taking stock of an action plan and pulling many people (including Police) round the table to create a strategy. Alison encouraged all partners to look at the report and also the Healthy Argyll and Bute Facebook page (will be renamed Living Well Argyll and Bute).


Pippa thanked Alison for her summary of the report and commented on the engaging format of the report the amazing amount on ongoing work that has continued through the challenges of the pandemic, that work is greatly appreciated. Robin, Albert and Anthony also commented on the layout of the report, which is so easy to read and visually stimulating. Laura added that the Living Well networks are brilliant to get messaging and engagement at a very local level.


Albert asked if fuel poverty over the winter is that something that is coming through the group already, however, Pippa advised this is worked on by various groups via Housing. Alison said it is right to consider that in terms of Public Health but agreed it may be better addressed by other groups. Fergus said fuel poverty is already a considerable issue, and will remain so going forward, especially for off gas grid residents. There has been a focus to spend Scottish government money, via HEAPS, providing internal and external insulation and new forms of heating to try and address that. There has been £1.7m provided from the Scottish government but supply chain issues have created delivery challenges. He also noted work with ACHA, who have a larger expenditure programme, but are also struggling with supply chain issues.    Stan added that this should also form part of the climate change agenda and Pippa was sure we would revisit these critical issues in future.


A National Care Service for Scotland Consultation - Presentation and Discussion (Pippa Milne and Fiona Davies) pdf icon PDF 718 KB


Pippa gave a presentation, with Fiona, to discuss how the CPP want to response to this consultation, and how we can progress that. The consultation was launched in August 2021 as part of the Scottish Government manifesto commitments following the Feeley report (Review of adult social care February 2021) and expands on that to include children services, community justice, alcohol and drug misuse, prisons, mental health and social work. It is the largest proposed change to local government since reorganisation. It is a lengthy consultation covering a number of themes and proposals. Responses are due by 2 November 2021, and feedback will be analysed to develop a Bill which is expected to be put to the Scottish parliament by summer 2022. This will involve extensive legislation for scrutiny by parliament with the intention to have a full social care service in place by 2026.


Pippa noted that they will be key issues to consider with the remote rural challenges in our area. She added that there is a lack of clarity on the detail within the consultation for key elements of the proposals, and we also need to consider the implications for the CPP. Takki noted that TSI network across Scotland is also going to do an overview response to the consultation.


The key areas of the consultation are:

-       Improvement - Establishment of single nation body for health and social care with accountability to Ministers at national level (not local government),

-       Access to care and support - removal of eligibility criteria’s and a focus on need, a consistent approach, prevention and early intervention and development of a national proactive model,

-       Rights to breaks from caring,

-       Using data to support care - implementation of accessible national social care and health records, 

-       Complaints and putting things right and

-       Residential care charges - increase sums paid for free personal and nursing care for care home residents.


Fiona then introduced herself as the interim chief officer for HSCP and said that it is important to draw out eligibility criteria in addition to an early intervention approach. There is an ambition to use this new approach to get things right and that social care done well enables people to achieve.


Takki said this is a massive change to the local service delivery model and risks losing the gain of local relationship building. Many welcomed the national standards but there is nervousness of democratic influence and control i.e. how would Argyll and Bute put  a rural frame on this proposal, and the need for another level of detail in how that applies in rural areas. TSI are supporting of the general principles but do have concern of loss of democratic control and that there has perhaps been a dilution from the original Feeley report. Pippa noted that individuals and organisations can also separately respond to the consultation, out with a joint response from the CPP.


The National Care Service (NCS) seeks to establish a service that removes responsibilities for social work and social care from local authorities. NCS will lead on all aspects of community health and social care improvement, with responsibility for national workforce planning. Takki would like to see more detail on how that applies to children services, for example, The Promise moves towards a child by child specific approach but how does that work when transferred to a national body?


Pippa advised that the consultation throws up a lot of practical question as to how it will work on the ground, and as it difficult to assess that without further detail a point of principle can be drawn out regarding that. Fiona added that in terms of context, the current remits of HSCPs vary hugely by area in terms of delegated service. Whilst not wanting to lose the gains of previous reviews, she felt that anything that can be done to improve services is a good thing. Albert asked about the existing IJB set up and work with social care, he worries about how we ensure the engagement is not centralised.  Pippa added there may be areas where the “economy of scale” needs adapted to fit rural areas.


IJBs are to be reformed to Community Health and Social Care boards (CHSCBs). Functions will become consistent across the country. CHSCBs are to be accountable to ministers and will have locally elected members and members representing the local population (including those with care experience and carers). CHSCBs will also become a member of community planning partnerships. Pippa is interested on partner views on that. Rona asked what the local geography is likely to be for the CHSCBs and Fiona confirmed the proposal states it is to mirror the IJB boundaries.


Alison noted there is a cross cutting theme for bodies to have equality outcome frameworks and report on those. It is a challenge for IJBs to do that as the parent organisations of Argyll and Bute Council and NHS Highland Board have different reporting periods. However, some of those anomalies may be ironed out and benefit the high level intentions to levelling up and equalities. Takki noted that the CHSCBs are to have responsibility for planning and procurement in the context of a national care service. The TSI are reflecting on that and there is fear of how a nationally set commissioning approach will that relate to small scale organisations, and associated third sector capacity building, being able to bid for contracts. All agreed that the independent scrutiny of the NCS standards and processes for ethical commissioning of social care services and support is good practice.


Fiona noted that in terms of the effect of this on the existing workforce, the consultation currently raised more questions than answers. The consultation proposes a national job evaluation framework and implementation of a national pay structure similar to the NHS. She hoped that these matters will be resolved as the process moves forward. Pippa also noted that if there are to be changes to staff employment, the timescales are ambitious.


Rona asked  ...  view the full minutes text for item 6b


Outcome 1 - Argyll and Bute Employability Partnership (ABEP) Terms of Reference and Improvement Action Plan (Ishabel Bremner) pdf icon PDF 548 KB


Ishabel noted the purpose of her report is to seek approval from the Community Planning Partnership (CPP) Management Committee with regard to the Argyll and Bute Employability Partnership (ABEP) Terms of Reference and Improvement Action Plan.


Further to the signing of a partnership agreement between the Scottish Government and Local Government on 5th December 2018, there has been a stronger focus on delivering the shared ambition of the Scottish Government’s No One Left Behind (NOLB) policy agenda through all 32 of Scotland’s Local Employability Partnerships (LEPs). NOLB is a programme of transformation which aims to change the employability system in Scotland to make it more adaptable, responsive and person-centred.


The ABEP recognises that through stronger and more collaborative partnership working, focused on a place-based person-centred approach, will help to ensure suitable opportunities for individuals of all ages and capabilities through tackling socio-economic disadvantage, inequalities and removing multiple barriers to securing sustainable employment. On this basis, the ABEP has developed a new Terms of Reference, as outlined in Appendix 1 to the report, and adhered to the Scottish Government’s requirement to prepare an Improvement Action Plan for consideration, as presented in Appendix 2 to the report.


Ishabel added that regular reporting and progress updates to the CPP will satisfy the requirements for stronger governance and will show that those involved do see it as a priority for local communities.


Pippa thanked Ishabel for the update and the partnership work that has gone around that. It was agreed that the CPP are happy to endorse the report and that further updates be provided to the CPP on a bi-annual basis.

ACTION - Argyll and Bute Employability Partnership (ABEP) update to be added to CPP agenda for March 2021.




Staff Recruitment and Retention (Morag Goodfellow)


Morag and Anthony advised that when engaging with the business community there is consistent strong feedback on concerns around staff availability and retention. Anthony said this is a people issue, which is pronounced within Argyll and Bute and the Highlands and Islands. He asked if the CPP need to look again at previous work around population issues to address this as we need to do something more than is currently happening. There is a national crisis around staffing and in Argyll and Bute all sectors are struggling for people. We need to look closely at what is currently happening and what we can do. It is proposed that a short life working group be formed to quickly examine if we are doing everything we need to do and what more can we look at doing.


Forecasts by SDS advise that between 2021-2024, there will be expansion in Argyll and Bute of 900 new jobs and 3000 replacement jobs, but there is only a working age population of around 31000 people to fill those roles.  Pippa said it is an ongoing issue and asked partners if they are willing to join a SLWG to look at this issue to reinvigorate it and look at what can be done. Neil agreed this affects all agencies and as he would like to join the SLWG. He also said the Police are looking at the same thing and workforce planning is an issue to the Police too. Stan added if there is information on which sectors are most affected. 

ACTION - Anthony to provide information on which sectors are most affected to cppadmin for onward distribution to the CPP.


Stan noted that we need to think ahead around the possibility of new green employment and transition of jobs to that. Anthony noted that SDS are looking at the promotion of opportunities around that with the green workforce academy. Robin commented that we need to treat this with urgency it is a huge problem, he is seeing local businesses closing for the day as they have no workforce available or are burnt out. He added that in respect of the driver shortages, we can put in place simple solutions such as improving / increasing roadside rest facilities and we need to join up with HiE and will raise this at the Convention of the Highlands and Islands next month. Pippa agreed action on this is needed now. Fergus reiterated the urgency of the situation with private sector contacts commenting on skill shortages and staff issues they are facing, he is happy to take part in SLWG to address this as we need to manage expectations on what we can do on a local level and identify actions we can take forward. Availability of housing in areas is an issue. We need to look at the practical steps, what are the more pertinent needs in our area and highlight them.

ACTION- Partners are to contact cppadmin to advise interest to join a SLWG on recruitment and retention.

ACTION - SLWG to report back to CPP in December.


Robin was concerned that reporting back in December is too far way. Pippa clarified that the updates of the SLWG progress should come to CPP in December but the SLWG can take forward actions in the interim.

ACTION - Updates from the SLWG (actions and progress) and sharing information on what is being done by groups can be circulated in CPP bulletins.



Date of Next Meeting

Wednesday 8th December 2021


The next meeting is scheduled for 1000 on Wednesday 8th December 2021. This would normally be a full partnership meeting, but as there are team vacancies the next meeting is likely to be a similar style to this one, with a full conference at a future date.





Pippa thanked everyone for attending and noted the commitment of the group is demonstrated by the amount of work going on around these items.