Agenda and minutes

Venue: By Skype

Contact: Fiona McCallum Tel. No. 01546 604392 

Items
No. Item

Members were asked to suspend Standing Order 5.4 – the Member who is presiding at the meeting must do so from the specified location for the meeting and cannot join by video conferencing. 

 

The requisite two thirds of Members present agreed to suspend Standing Order 5.4 to enable discussion of reports on the Agenda.

1.

APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE

Minutes:

An apology for absence was received from Councillor Audrey Forrest.

2.

DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST

Minutes:

There were no declarations of interest.

3.

CIVIC GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT 1982: REQUEST FOR SUSPENSION OF ITINERANT METAL DEALER LICENCE (NUMBER 4782) (W CAMERON, BY LOCHGILPHEAD)

Report by Head of Legal and Regulatory Support

Minutes:

The Chair welcomed everyone to the meeting and introductions were made.  Sgt Gall, on behalf of Police Scotland, and Mr Gallacher, on behalf of the Licence Holder, joined the meeting by telephone.

 

The Committee were advised that Police Scotland had requested that the Committee take into consideration a conviction which was considered “spent” in terms of the Rehabilitation of Offenders act 1974. 

 

The Council’s Solicitor, Mr McMillan, outlined the procedure that would be followed in this respect and the Chair invited Police Scotland to address the question of relevancy of the spent conviction.

 

POLICE SCOTLAND

 

Sgt Gall advised that the spent conviction was relevant to the current charges the Licence Holder was looking at.

 

LICENCE HOLDER

 

Mr Gallacher advised that it was his opinion the spent conviction was irrelevant at this stage.  The reason for this being he was aware that when Mr Cameron’s current metal dealer’s licence was granted in 2018 this conviction was before the Committee on that occasion and the licence was granted.  He advised that it was his submission to reconsider that conviction again would be unjust.  He said that all the information was before the Committee on that occasion and the application was granted so it would be unjust to reconsider especially as the licence was granted on the previous occasion.

 

POLICE SCOTLAND

 

Sgt Gall commented that the spent conviction may not have been relevant at the time when the application was granted but due to the new charges it was her view that it would be relevant to admit the evidence in relation to the spent conviction.

 

DEBATE

 

Councillor Currie advised that he agreed with the comments made by the Licence Holder’s Solicitor.  He said that it seemed crazy to him to call something spent if it was not spent.  He advised that considering that the Committee addressed this last time round and still awarded the licence, he did not see why the Committee should re-look at this today.

 

Councillor Kinniburgh sought and received confirmation from Sgt Gall that it was her opinion that the circumstances around the spent conviction were relevant to this hearing.

 

Councillor Colville referred to the Police letter requesting the suspension of the licence.  He commented that the letter stated that the spent conviction was a similar conviction to the current charge, and said perhaps it would be relevant for today’s hearing.

 

Councillor McCuish advised that he thought it would be relevant and that the Committee should hear more about it and decide whether to give it more or less weight this time.

 

Councillor Redman said he agreed with Councillor Currie as given the licence was granted before he could not see how the spent conviction would be relevant now.

 

Councillor Kinniburgh advised that he personally thought the spent conviction would be relevant.  He said that the Police seem to have insinuated that it was the same type of offence which made him think that it would be relevant to today’s hearing.  He commented that when the Committee made the decision to grant the licence the last time the Committee may have taken the view that if anything similar occurred again it would come before the Committee.

 

The Committee agreed that the spent conviction was relevant and agreed to take this into account.  A copy of this was circulated via email to the Committee.  It was also read out by Mr McMillan and presented onscreen.

 

The Chair then outlined the hearing procedure that would be followed and invited Police Scotland to speak in support of the Chief Constable’s complaint.

 

POLICE SCOTLAND

 

Sgt Gall advised that the current charge was similar to the previous conviction.  As it was a matter of public record she said she could advise that the lower reading of the breath sample provided by the Licence Holder contained 41 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath, exceeding the limit of 21 micrograms which, she advised, was almost double and similar to the last time.

 

LICENCE HOLDER

 

Mr Gallacher advised that Mr Cameron was deemed to be a fit and proper person when his licence was last granted in 2018 and said that at this stage nothing had changed.  He asked the Committee to take account of his innocence until otherwise proven guilty.  He advised that he believed Mr Cameron has held his scrap metal licence for 5 years and, as previously said, on that last occasion he was deemed to be a fit and proper person to hold this licence.  He referred to the Chair advising that it may have been said at the time that if anything similar to his previous conviction came up again it would be brought to the Committee.  He said that he was not sure if it was concrete that had been said the last time or if it may have been said and it was not possible to know this for sure.  He advised that Mr Cameron was a 44 year old man who worked for the Council and only had one previous conviction from 6 years ago.  He acknowledged that Mr Cameron was just under twice the limit the last time, but asked the Committee not to suspend his licence and allow him to continue to operate his licence.  He pointed out that Mr Cameron was in production for himself and for the wider community.  He picked up lots of scrap lying around and worked an 80 mile radius, travelling down to Campbeltown and up to Oban.  He advised that his work benefited the community and asked the Committee to take that into consideration.  He said that a decision had still to be taken on the charge and he was still innocent until proven guilty.  He advised that he has been instructed by his client to plead not guilty and asked the Committee to take account of that also.

 

MEMBERS’ QUESTIONS

 

Councillor McCuish referred to Mr Gallacher advising that since 2018 nothing had changed.  He asked if he would agree that the breath test readings have changed since 2018.  ...  view the full minutes text for item 3.